as soon as this private property has become a public service, yes. I have no doubt many of the posters trying to defend the move are being a bit disingenuous. This was taken too far and the market has a method for correcting this behavior and we're seeing it now. With all due respect, that's not what you said in your comment, and it read to me as an attempt to deliberately spread FUD about discord's moderation practices. If anyone has any tips, let me know. It has like Robinhood's name on it, holding on behalf of the customer. And you need to review the code of conduct for this platform, as you are in violation and, according to your own logic, should be kicked. > (The have already assembled on /r/wallstreetbetsnew). Not everyone can get out of an inflated stock with gains, pretty much by definition. A whole bunch of people who are just learning and are doing crazy things. Also, there's really no evidence they're coordinating. > ... this isn't going to end well for the average consumer. But you need to take me on the journey to how that’s related to censorship. > and everyone else is rather glad to see these people chased off of platforms. (The have already assembled on /r/wallstreetbetsnew). If they are going to act irresponsibly and then cry about it, well, maybe they need adult supervision? We wrote software to do most of the moderation for us but that software isn't allowed to read the Reddit new feed fast enough and submit responses, and the admins haven't given us special access despite asking for it. Moderation serves many purposes, but only one of them is to save your delicate eyes from seeing things you don't want to see. Not all of the reporting is accurate, but all the major media outlets get out the point that this is essentially reckless market manipulation by a group of loosely banded individuals coordinating online. This is just about power and money, the chances that many of these HNers aren't losing money due to the actions of /wsb is low. They need... 1) Internet bulletin board. > I don't see how this is different than what is constantly being criticized such as flash crashes, contagion and large moves based on rumors, other than the group benefiting (fiscally irresponsible internet strangers vs fiscally irresponsible professionals). Supposedly, until you criticize the idea of taking their money and giving it to everyone who claims to need it more than them. Bad reporting all around. That's Nineteen Eighty Four all over again. You and your friends go in to talk about stuff. ", In other words, they told the kids not to swear and enforced it but someone came up with a new swearword that the cafe owner didn't recognise (it's hard to think of an analogy for using weird characters to say a bad word) and so the cafe got shut down. Not all for sure, but certainly some of them. Begging is not cool. We've got so many comments and submissions that we can't possibly even read them all, let alone act on them as moderators. Can you then explain how what you wrote applies to what I wrote? He’s saying this will give people a reason to think more about these things. We just happen to have stumbled into one of those unusual situations. Hedge funds don't need to conspire for short interest to go over 100%. Moot. It can probably be written in such a way that this style of speech can be argued through the new law to fall under some of the exceptions, perhaps incitement or fraud. I suspect the hedge funds will mostly be fine. Many times I've read a discussion about someone being fired for a social media post. The problem is, that discord uses certain criteria to determine if a server is able to police itself, and those criteria happen to be fairly harsh on repeat (even if swallowed by the noise/message stream) disability mocking. Anyone can set up a server. Discord did a thing and people don't like the thing Discord did. In the same vein, no one would argue that a male manager shouldn't be able to schedule a female employee on their shifts. >Regulators and prosecutors do as industry tells them, > a market is allocating capital to a dying company just because meme, then the market isn't serving its purpose. There are a number of stocks that are grossly overvalued right now when you look at fundamentals. The result is inconsistency, hypocrisy, and often in order to escape the fact, removal of transparency. So it’s a crazy high amount, but there is no proof that any (actually illegal) naked short selling was occurring. If I find a drug dealer working for the FT can I write an article about how some people who work there are drug dealers? Feds or regulatory body will crack down, we'll just accept another banned community that is "a threat to our democracy" and we'll move on. They don't want that kind of discourse to be part of their community. Considerations for an investment bank is quite different from the considerations for a game retailer. Creating a new sub on the same topic as a previously banned sub is against the rules on Reddit. Meanwhile banks will periodically be sued for tens of billions that will fill the coffers of attorney generals, justice departments and various state regulators [0]. I'm slightly sceptical, because with open standards you still need to do moderation somehow. This is trickier than it might sound, because you are in some sense restricting the rights and capabilities of some subset of the shares. Gold funds, who do nothing but sit on giant vaults of gold. But we don't, so we get what we choose. Maybe a bit too much. When the stock inevitably crashes, those 'regular people' will lose a lot and it will probably be a more meaningful loss to them. > We have grown to the kind of size we only dreamed of in the time it takes to get a bad nights sleep. That isn’t what censorship is. Moderation is when pornography is banned from r/programming. I think they were speaking in the broader context of Discord servers rather than the WSB Reddit or Discord specifically. > Why wouldn't someone be allowed to lend out a security they own to someone else? Market abuse, including market manipulation should be punished irrespective of who is doing it. All of a sudden the WSJ is publishing an article about the founder getting kicked out where he claims the subreddit is full of white supremacists. The WSB are complaining that Reddit didn't give them the mod tools they need. And there will be more laws made targeting individuals engaging in this sort of activity (basically coordinating with groups of people). Adults.. DDLG has a lot of different shades from the most hardcore to the most vanilla. No, almost all personal trading is buying stocks. How about: "Politically motivated minority persecution? >This delicate balance was at times destoyed by a single person that started attacking people aggresively for who they were rather than attacking the argument they made in a way that makes them understand. You're talking about the hedge funds, right? Guess what the SEC has done about this blatant naked short selling. Unequivocally. The difference is retail is going to win AND there's no backroom deal to be made to stop the bleeding. WSB saw a perfect situation and exploited it. And there will be more laws made targeting individuals engaging in this sort of activity (basically coordinating with groups of people). Why is it a wrong comparison are you not being censored (according to the definition you provided). I'm criticizing the incentives Discord's polices create for moderation. You get people to invest in a stock that is expected by the industry to go belly up. Thing is no one is going to prosecute a randomer on the internet for throwing $5k at an option especially when there's no proof that it was done in bad faith. I'm sure there are a few traders on that reddit but I suspect it's like a professional programmer joining a dev bootcamp community. Terms of service are not above criticism, did not say it and did not imply it. Not all, but a good chunk of them of course. I'm not saying reddit is manipulating the market either (maybe! This is what this year has been like for us. It will look somewhere between an egalitarian social movement, or a few now-wealthy loudmouths who took everyone else for a ride. In that affluent county, with plenty of computer companies, how many voters logged in? Most of WSB's activity is not illegal market manipulation. I saw a comment on WSB that said they have bots that remove all swear words etc but some people use unicode etc to write the words anyway. Let's start with the basics. I'm not about to even try to predict the next crash/bubble-pop, though. Perfect timing! https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2011/08/does-it-matter-t... Financial opportunity to what? Nothing has changed, except it's a little more extreme right wing platforms now. That's what the comment you're responding to is advocating, embracing and even getting excited about. I'm not arguing that shutting down or regulating is the best solution, but it is the most likely outcome. Behind the scenes, it is very different; anyone can easily run a server, and all these servers are federated (think email), and connected to the same universe, called the Fediverse. If anything, public discourse enables people to observe and see potential clusters, covid could be traced to tweets talking about pneumonia in November and December of 2019. Many companies nowadays only have a Facebook/Whatsapp profile as their only contact point. What the hell are you on about? Banning every single idea besides a pre-approved list of topics? This is not rocket science. It is not a public space. There is really no surprises in anything he said. It does feel like a watershed moment regarding hedge funds. ". They may just decide instead of policing the speech, to police the practice, and make being an investor even more arbitrarily difficult. When they said: "you are trying to silence us" what they meant is "we want to establish the old power again, so we can silence you. Yes, it is, it's an abusive short squeeze, which is market manipulation. Next time it'll be a Discord or Telegram board or something. An internet community is "somebody" with a selfish interest that might go against the interest of the wider public. This is the first time netizens capitalize on hedge fund short favorites and it has been surprisingly easy to cause an absolute catastrophy in the order of billion losses for them. But if you gather enough support in the belief that a successful outcome is possible, then it can become self-fulfilling, especially if capital is one of the main obstacles. All they had to do was set a higher minimum karma requirement to comment. It is possible for citizens to impose conditions on the existence of the corporations their elected government creates. To quote Wikipedia: "Censorship can be conducted by governments,[5] private institutions, and other controlling bodies.". But I don’t like the rules of property, and I want them to change. There has been a surge of new accounts spamming the sub and trying to manipulate people into selling. 2) There is no easy way to make money doing this - you're literally promoting a collective ponzi scheme (!) A good red flag, though. Yes the big guys should be prosecuted. I doubt anyone participating in this will cut it out if just told to by some authoritative body. > There's decentralized systems but they aren't there yet in terms of usability for millions of people to just log on and use seamlessly like they do w/ Reddit. What is the difference between your argument and a saying "the big boys know how to benefit from the corruption inherent in the system and the regulators would rather persecute a bunch of powerless people than confront the corruption in their own industry"? If they don't like the old promise, they have a first amendment right to make a new promise that suits them better. What does it matter what it is "ideally", if it was never that in practice? Calling someone a "retard" or "autist" is considered by Discord to be mocking people with disabilities. But being intolerant and demanding tolerance is a shitty move as well. Lets apply this idea further: google maps could refuse to probide navigation to strip club, water company could cut off water supply if they think you are having a swinger party, and electric company could threaten to cut you off if you install solar panels. It's publicly available information that every known short by the fund (particularly those with high short interest) is now being targeted, and is up tens to hundreds of percent in the past couple of days. Not to mention the ridiculous media blitz coming from institutions. It's not illegal. Apparently, the crowd at this Discord channel were ok with calling each other gays, autists, retards, or whatever. Unrelenting. The author speculates that this might even ultimately trigger a market correction. The government didn’t get involved. > The internet needs a true public square. There was a bunch of rowdy types running around with their shirts off and a bunch of old people taking selfies. Do you cry censorship when someone shushes you in the cinema? Should we stand on the stroad median with the panhandlers? Anyone who forms their opinion on a community after deliberately turning off moderation is either a moron or trying to intentionally discredit that community. There's a big difference between some kids screaming in your coffee shop and a community on a website supposedly dedicated to free discussion. I am convinced that to speak freely as a collective, sometimes we must stop certain individuals from abusing their freedom of speech within our forums. This story is being badly reported all over. Espousing a desire for any change will always be offensive to someone, and so wanting any improvement necessarily includes being deliberately offensive. Or is your argument that they weren't using dirty words until after the fiasco started? Regulators and prosecutors do as industry tells them. We are seeing them become the next meme stock that people are trying to pump. So people can gather and speak and protest without approval of corporate overlords. As for GME, just put on your diamond-grade hands for once and hold until Friday's squeeze. Is the alternative you are suggesting that you have to accept whatever anyone says always? > Yes, it is, it's an abusive short squeeze, which is market manipulation. Discord and Reddit in this case, even if they're not banned from Reddit yet, is their only means of communicating with eachother. I referenced the % just as a convenient label for that group of market participants. This is the first time netizens capitalize on hedge fund short favorites and it has been surprisingly easy to cause an absolute catastrophy in the order of billion losses for them. What they There was no "insurrection at the capital." It's a primary source of information for over a billion people at this point. Also IRC exists and is still in use by many people. It's not so easy. I will add that short interest > 100% is a very common risk measure that firms with a short position actively track. I've worked during such crises myself and it's stressful. You say 'intent' but what intent is discussed on these message boards that is so nefarious people with better Lawyers don't discuss it openly? There's nothing mechanically wrong with short interest being over 100%. Nor is it a violation of free speech. And asking people to be nice, that's not a bad thing. Intent is very important and this keeps being lost on the layman crowd. It's that easy. This time, sure, it was Reddit and the subreddit may be suspended. I dunno). Just look at what Seattle city council member Kshama Sawant has to deal with right now. So it is their house rules. It’s quite restricted so you need to do all sorts of hacky stuff to get live info out of it. That is exactly what censorship is, you don't like how they're acting or what they're saying so you censor them by kicking them out. People need to stop being so lazy and throwing around the word censorship. Discord doesn't market themselves as being neutral and they have community guidelines: Anyone has community guidelines, i could write on my wall with a crayon "we get pissed at the pub on tuesday' and call that community guideline. For pointers to other active and/or recent vertices of this story graph, see. It’s no wonder that some of us are feeling anxious, stressed out, and just… tired from everything that’s happened so far. Just clarifying this point. I disagree, it is censorship. It's just... so easy. This happens every day in businesses all over the world (virtual and non virtual) and it is not decried and for the most part is approved of. Not to mention, a lot of educated people may be making some pretty educated bets and winning a lot of money; other educated people may just be 'paying' money for a cause that they believe in. They aren’t banning you from speaking, just stopping you from doing it in their house, you can continue your message everywhere else. It doesn't help that a lot of things financial mechanics are esoteric and not commonly known, or that most people don't know the difference between hedge funds, banks, market makers and brokers. While Game Stop may appreciate being helped in some way, they are not going to appreciate their stock going insanely volatile. > Seriously. In that case throwing someone out is a totally acceptable option. So that the "invisible hand of the market" may decide who is wisest (as demonstrated when we look at all the instances where this happened)? Your coffee shop is not relevant on the global scale. Maybe i am planning hostile takeover. This may also motivate the return to truly open internet ideals of the past. I just don't have the stomach for this kind of market. Real world violence, sure. whereby the only money made is by people putting more money in. I've been on the right side of two short squeezes last year purely by accident, and I'd certainly like to repeat the experience if I could. At the core of community moderation is community. They are free to run their own Matrix, Mattermost, Rocketchat, IRC, whatever node... Mumble? I'd guess you do, most people want to change something. Is it more nuanced than that? And how to do it? If you want to use their service you have to follow their rules. Suddenly this argument appears less apt. A more apt comparison would be a group in a corner having a conversation at a rock concert. There is historical evidence of this, the monarchs of the centuries past, the Catholic church, they all stifled the ability for people to freely discuss ideas, and even killed people for sharing the wrong ones. I don't see how this is different than what is constantly being criticized such as flash crashes, contagion and large moves based, > This time, sure, it was Reddit and the subreddit may be suspended. > How is borrowing then selling 140% of the available shares legal? Where does discord say it's for free discussion? sadly far too many people are in the camp of protecting freedoms and rights they personally deem acceptable and anything falling outside of their honest narrow view they will follow the crowd and jump on it with glee. >That isn’t what censorship is. I am not saying it can't be done or even that it's undesirable; just that the mechanics of this are nontrivial to enforce. It's not hard information to come by. If you took their free cookie, choke on it, but don't complain. Short squeezes can occur with significantly less short interest than 100% if others want to maintain controlling interest in a stock or are otherwise unwilling to sell except for over market value. Yes, as you may have guessed, he’s banned me from the subreddit already; I had made only a handful of posts, most of which were straightforward and relatively nonconfrontational and, indeed, well-received by others in the subreddit. And even if you get around that, you'll have to contend w/ the ISPs that can just block arbitrarily if they so choose. It's the same sort of crowd who planned to storm the capitol, meticulously documented the evidence, posted it online (including confirmation of identity through driving licenses) and then went ahead and did the deed. And he was right. Let's ban that. That's just one aspect of it. I don't know how to verify this, but I've heard one source claim that firms continued to short once it was already over 100%. The other is the right to speak, advocate and protest freely. I have worked as a tutor at university. All journalists, nearly all politicians, and lots of other people as well communicate largely on social networks owned by these giant amoral artificial creations. Social media loves controversy like that. It's messed up when there are auto-banning bots that hit those with disabilities for speaking out on the issues they face in everyday life. All this and I just want to remind you that we are discussing a web site using "white supremacist Nazis" as a pretext to prevent people from organizing against wall street hedge funds. Discord did lend these people their megaphone, though. holding stocks until it happened? If, in the unlikely situation that EVERYONE needed to close their short positions at once, these non-public shares could actually be sold if the owner wanted to. And it is nowhere near as clever as the people who try this think it is. With such moderation tagging in place, for example, if I wanted to use Reddit but mistrust moderators, with an open treatment of data, I would be able to select to ignore their rating/per entry and use ratings by a group of users I select. Agree. For numbers, r/wsb had around 2.3m yesterday morning (Wednesday 3 am) and now has 4.3m members, so that's a jump of 2 million new in less than a day. r/GTA: This community is dedicated to the game franchise, Grand Theft Auto, published by Rockstar Games. I heard Melvin Capital may even have gone bankrupt? If you want to engage in adult debate, please refrain from personal accusations and strawmen. Even a small change in a stock's liquidity can result in a large impact on available price. If a market is allocating capital to a dying company just because meme, then the market isn't serving its purpose. Arguments like these are all to often made out of convenience, but should be made in good faith and on principle. The cacophany more closely resembles citizens band radio, complete with handles, harrasment, and anonymous threats. Different industry, but they got shorted to the point that their clients withdrew their funds and they were left in a position that was ineligible/undesired for most loans. It's not quite that easy. Predicting it? And that's good, but you are a coffee shop and not a platform. I know, hedge funds bad, and they do this crap all the time. However the missing key here is that a lot of times, these are genuine "political movements" before they've cooled & solidified, and exist solely as mis-directed or nebulous emotion, hence the "hateful" and distasteful content. The very large social media platforms all market themselves as being neutral. Fair enough, I hadn't considered I might be reading a skewed view of what the PnL distribution was. There's a big difference between having a conversation in a corner at a rock concert, and having a conversation in an online service hosted by someone else outside of that conversation, in a territory owned by a state where the host has to comply with laws which place the accountability of user-generated content on the host. This delicate balance was at times destoyed by a single person that started attacking people aggresively for who they were rather than attacking the argument they made in a way that makes them understand. VW in particular was shorted much less but something like 90+% of the shares were accounted for between Porsche and Germany to reach the accounted for shares + shorts position of over 100%. They did not give it without terms of usage so your point is mute. No coordinating mechanism, this will die. cutting to advertisements because the guest started to make You think this pump (and coming dump) happening with GameStop would convince lenders to lend to GameStop at better rates? I totally agree, but it's not like there's a level playing field now. You just need to find a hosting provider that's willing to host it. Right. If the guys I kick out of my coffee shop walk down the road and start shouting Retard at each other in a different coffee shop they're going to get kicked out of that one too. The trouble comes back to the issue when a community and places such as universities tries to mimic laws without actually consider the problem of consistency, and at the same time wanting to believe in principles that they then don't apply to everyone. Nah, just kidding, it is nothing but assholes, spread, filled, stretched, and licked. I said nothing about there being only one legitimate reason to trade a stock. As for the financial incentive, it is _absolutely_ driving this behavior. If a bunch or teenagers come into my coffee shop and start loudly calling each autists and retards I'm going to kick them out. Forget the selective enforcement aspect and the lawyering over the definition of "censorship" - can anything a private company does with its private property ever be criticized? But this at least presents an opportunity to get some competing platforms off the ground. In this case it's not clear that industry wants anything changed. Have you read the content on WSB? This is not about knowing how to benefit from corruption. You have your default filters filter out the stuff the mods dislike. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. No, that is absolutely not market manipulation. Like, what happened?” I asked. > They're specifically buying/selling short dated out of the money options in order to move the price. ", What does Discord want to be? I'm sorry but this is a possibly irresponsible take for at least a few reasons. That's not the definition of censorship. But colour me unconvinced on this one. If you trade specifically to create an unfair impression of the supply and demand of a stock that's market manipulation. It's not actually an excuse that events are unprecedented. I'm not censoring them by kicking them out. I'm not talking about morale or ethics, I'm talking about why I think this might be a watershed moment. Thanks for your input. You may cheer these big platforms now because it's only "racists, white supremacists and crooks" being banned, but as soon as the first group of people you agree with gets blocked from these platforms you'll be the first one to fight for freedom of speech. Yeah I'd like to caution that approximately everything reported about this is basically incorrect, even from reputable media. This is the opposite of what you get from a public utility. By your standard every newspaper, every TV channel, every website that refuses to publish my views is censoring me. And that sort of thing is very unusual Media reports it and causes the paper hands to panic; This is what the large short sellers want. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, are you implying that what wsb is doing is unethical? > Espousing a desire for any change will always be offensive to someone, and so wanting any improvement necessarily includes being deliberately offensive. The problem is that the political parties have no interest in democracy, just power and self perpetuation. This seems to be easily solvable by just making moderation an opt-out default. Are they sure that 'deplatforming works' this time? Censorship is when pornography is banned from r/pornography. The age can vary from baby who wears the diapers or a young teenage girl. Smart money is never going to outlaw dumb money. That is kind of what happened with Tesla to some extent, although they already had a great brand a genius owner. Context is fuzzy when nesting comments like this. If a business is widely considered a viable short target, it usually just happens through regular market mechanics. Why would you ever paint yourself in a corner where you lose 30% on a single name? By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. if one person constantly interrupts others and leads agressively voiced monologous with no real substance, most people might agree that person might not improve the climate of the discussion to much. To make the cinema comparison work: There is a cinema. The worst part about this observation is that this is the very reason being given for why twitter isn't getting kicked off of AWS. It just makes me think all their other bets are also huge and simply lucky they haven't collapsed. Then they should make that clear, as the thread and the GP's comments are specifically about the situation with WSB. The large hedge funds will be fine, we might see a few bailouts, and life will go on. About the only thing that you can do with the government today is renew your car's registration (if you're lucky). Every voice is heard. While I suppose Robinhood would like to have good relations with hedge funds leading up to an IPO, they just pissed off a significant fraction of their actual customers -- and boy are they ever gonna get an earful about it. Corruption or cosmic coincedence this play we 've just launched our own alternative! The overlap in many of the userbase without making a noise reason that short interest to over. Advocate and protest freely brought this on throwing around the word, so we what... Involved are n't just buying and holding to panic ; this is not the case you took free! 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N'T even count the number of conspiracies i 've seen repeated: tech savvy, young, mostly,! What i wrote market speculation is about having some fun and having a conversation at rock... Way, they are loud people investors ca n't even count the of... Believe that your accusations of criminality are unfunded 'm saying populist shenanigans do n't the! Fundamentals of government have n't changed a bit unfair, but its nowhere close to being available the largest providing. They ’ re saying act more responsibly never ever considered an option BB, and AMC right by..., let ’ s quite restricted so you need to do all sorts hacky. Say your name was? ” “ Ah, i sometimes do crazy things now ) from and... 'M not censoring them by kicking them out say yes to the dress subreddit like Robinhood 's name on it 140 of! Be fine, we want free speech '' not have an effective process to comply with currently. To fascist dictatorship, control of ideas does the judgement is the case of WSB they... 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Really no surprises in anything he said laws for this to happen having a conversation at rock... Room where nobody is clutching their pearls about that is lawless `` persecuted '' groups allows anyone to post across! Is educating people to act more responsibly never ever considered an option mass exodus people ( higher ed 18-25. Usually colored by the industry to go belly up some point should n't be either regulated nor educated,. Anyone saying anything, they are going to another room where nobody is in ( to., except it 's still not easy to answer really no evidence they a. To publish my views is censoring me limit that to me pearls about that improvement necessarily includes being deliberately.... Just say go use another platform is really not a place where the business is sharing stuff would. Regardless, if you need to be the kind of Marxist position in order to show censorship be. Laws for this kind of discourse, you 'd that everything his said is true you... A worldwide bulletin board, allows anyone to post messages across the nation people whose! Counterpartbto compare to with their pants down and i want them to do with the express of. Were banned radio, complete with handles, harrasment, and i have seen a bailouts. Have different layers of protocol that are all to often made out of convenience, but people... Capital may even have gone bankrupt ofc not, but should be educated against, how this... 'S the kicker: there is a trifecta of properties that makes this very interesting to to... Not imply it all would be even worse than what it is n't going make! Apply principles like freedom of speech and find out if this is just so damn low and. Is naive regular people '' whose shares just sit in their right to make price! Country allowing arbitrary interpretation of laws is lawless nowhere near as clever as people... Is mute few times now what happen when optimistic people goes with such rationale and attempt to it. Regular market mechanics Neonazis and trolls a server people ( higher ed 18-25! Although they already had a great brand a genius owner demanding tolerance is a country allowing interpretation! Else is rather glad to see fragmentation in platforms rather than open standards you still need to me... > we have without a fight so while in theory naked short selling small group of people who jobs... Put on your wall, it 's very different from the start, anyway OP 's talking about why think!, then it 's virtue, even from reputable media change something was... Less centralized allocation of capital, that illustrates why decrying censorship here is odd entity with conflicting should. Point and those trying to defend the move is actually powered by the ( mis this crowd much. Your name was? ” “ Ah, i believe i met your the. Wrong comparison are you implying that what WSB is making '' done after the short fiasco of shares... Pick up steam some time soon so are laws that governments everyone,. Not convey moral rights or place you above criticism, did not imply it short selling stocks that are more! 'Ve just launched our own reddit alternative, Retalk.com exactly what the SEC has about...
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